The Chimney Sweep Online Fireplace, Woodstove, Gas Stove and Barbecue Shop
The Chimney Sweep Online Fireplace, Woodstove, Gas Stove and Barbecue Shop
If you're considering a vent-free gas appliance, you should first read these letters, excerpts and E-mail postings written by vent-free
owners. We've corrected spelling and grammar where necessary, and edited out some of the harsher language from the original text.
# 1: Serious ongoing health problems
My Name is Kim, I am trying desperately to locate other people who have suffered the long term effects of CO. My Family of four was poisoned for over two years, before we found out why we were all so sick. My five year old daughter was having many illnesses, eventually led to seizures. This all stemmed from a ventless gas fireplace we installed in our basement. Three months after it was installed my daughter had her first seizure. Husband began having severe headaches, trembling, memory loss, and numerous other ailments. Neurologists diagnosed daughter as epileptic!!!!! They now know they were wrong.
This began in January 1995. Husband still on oxygen every day, and medication, and extreme memory loss, and other problems. Daughter is having
no more seizures, and last EEG done three months after gas shut off, was normal. First normal EEG in two years. We have been through it all!!! If
anyone knows about CO, it's me and family. I have found a support group based in the United Kingdom that is helping us deal with this mess. And
we are in search of other people who need our help. We are also trying to find a way to inform the public about this silent killer. Would you be able
to help us in any way? Your concern could save a life. We have had a forensic scientist in our home doing tests on fireplace, and the final result was
determined that you cannot put a combustible gas in an airtight home and not vent it. I have done much research on this situation and talked to
toxologists, chemists, and other specialists, and not one of them can believe we are still alive, they are all behind us all the way. I'll be waiting to
hear from you.
Thanks,
Kim
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#2: Headaches, dizziness, unacceptable CO levels
Date: Monday, March 30, 1998
We are a young couple with four children and live in a small community in Ohio. In 1996, we built a new home and moved in in late October. In November, we decided to try out our new vent free gas fireplace. Neither myself nor my husband are familiar with gas appliances, so we called [the owner of the retail shop where we bought the unit]. He had what he called a startup package for around $40. We were surprised at the charge since nothing was mentioned at the time of the sale, however we decided it would be best to know how to use it properly.
We asked [our retailer] about using a CO detector. He told us they really aren't necessary because the unit has a built in sensor that will shut itself off if the level gets too high. He also told us to let the unit burn for 4 to 5 hours to get the initial smell and burn off from the logs. We did this, but still noticed an odor even after 10-12 hours. We called [our retailer] again and were told to burn the unit for 100 hours. This seemed extremely long, but we did this over a series of 2 months.
In early January, we were still experiencing the odor and also seemed to notice a listlessness in our children, dizziness and sometimes headaches, while running the unit. At this time we still did not have a CO detector, so we have no idea how high the reading got at this point.
We finally decided to go out and buy a CO detector. Within half an hour of turning the unit on the warning alarm sounded. We called [our retailer] again and now he says that these detectors warn you way before there is a problem, so he still says we do not have a problem. We decided to buy another one and have one on the first and second floors. The upstairs would alarm within half an hour and the downstairs within 2-1/2 hours.
Again, we contacted [our retailer] and he told us the CO detectors we bought are too sensitive and to call [the manufacturer], to see what they recommend. They recommended a different brand with a digital display. So, we go out and buy our third CO detector. We now have two different brands of CO detectors in a loft area overlooking our great room. The great room measures 17x20 and has a 17 foot cathedral ceiling and this is where the vent free fireplace is located. The great room is also open to a kitchen/dining room and a 2-story entrance. So, it is a very roomy and open area. The following is an example of one days CO level readings:
Time Reading Description ---------------------------------------------------------------- 7:50 am 0 Turned fireplace on 8:05 am 7 8:20 am 9 Upstairs CO detector alarm 8:45 am 11 9:40 am 13 10:15 am 14 Downstairs CO detector alarm 10:50 am 15 11:20 am 16 12:00 pm 17 12:30 pm 18 1:20 pm 19 2:00 pm 21 Noticed dizziness 2:20 pm 22 2:45 pm 23 Headache starting - turned unit off
It took until 8:00 am next morning to get the detector reading below 10. These levels are not considered very high, but being exposed to these on a daily or every other day basis which we were in trying to get this 100 hours of burning time in, may become harmful, especially for our young children.
On another day of recording the readings, we got the following results:
Time Reading Description ----------------------------------------------------------- 10:00 am 0 Turned fireplace on 11:05 am 10 11:45 am 12 12:25 pm 14 2:00 pm 20 Turned fireplace off
We called the fire department out and they felt we had a problem and should call the gas company. The gas company came out and they too felt we had a problem. Their representative told us any reading over 10 is unacceptable in a residential home. He also told us he was "red flagging" the unit, which he explained to mean that he had checked out all other possible sources of CO and determined the cause to be the vent free gas fireplace. This would let the gas company off the hook if something would happen to any of us.
Throughout this whole process we had over 30 phone calls to [the manufacturer] and [our retailer]. [Our retailer] was not willing to do anything except tell us to talk to the manufacturer. [The manufacturer] did try replacing the logs, they tried replacing the whole guts of the unit and the logs. The old unit was then to be sent back for testing. [The manufacturer] instructed [our retailer] to install the new burner and logs and return the old unit. I checked on the results of this and every time I was told that they had not received the unit from [our retailer]. They also tried new brick panels too. We still got the same results and every time they sent something new we had to go through the initial burn off process again.
Finally, after one year of frustration, [the manufacturer] suggested we try something new called a catalytic converter unit. They were going to send out technicians to check out the other unit and install this new catalytic converter unit. Well, here's another problem. We have the old unit enclosed in a brick front that goes all of 17' in height. I do not want to have to go through the expense and the mess of having the old one cut out and then the new one put in and still have the possibility of having problems because it would still be an unvented unit. We have done too much research in the meantime and know that we want nothing but a vented unit that has a vertical pipe running all the way up and through the roof. We only wish we knew all we do now before we started building. We are going to go through the expense and the mess and have this unit replaced, but we want nothing to do with any gas appliance that is unvented.
We have since this time talked to several people in fireplace sales and gas appliance installation and none of them are recommending the vent free units. We sure would not recommend one. We only hope that this information may persuade a person who is thinking of buying a vent free unit. Please think twice about it because we have also had moisture problems as well. Which is a totally different story.
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#3: Soot all over the house
Date: Thursday, October 14, 1999
Hello, Found your webpage..and was so thrilled..have some questions. We purchased a vent free fireplace from a local distributor 2 yrs ago, and it
has been nothing but a nightmare...soot, soot and more soot. I have been told it is the fact that it is vent free, or it is [the
manufacturer]...whatever...they have not been able to fix the problem. So we have a beautiful fireplace I won't use, because it ruins the walls,
curtains, etc. We have decided the only solution to our problem is to go with a vented fireplace, but will not buy from the same folks, and are very
skeptical about buying thru a place like Lowes, etc. This can be a costly addition, and we don't want to have to go thru this repeatedly. Our source
of fuel is propane..we also use this with our furnace. We have decided we'd better go to a vented fireplace, so am looking for suggestions. The
fireplace we have now says max. 22, 000 btu, if that will help with size, etc. I would appreciate your assistance.
Thank You.
Jean
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#4: Massive condensation damage
Date: Monday, May 15, 2000
Despite a science background, I failed to consider the water production from burning propane when I left the (installed by builder) vent free wall gas
heater on (low) in a mountain cabin during winter months to thwart freezing and supplement electric units. Well the pipes didn't freeze, but all
windows had enormous ice deposits along their base and sides from the thaw/drip/freeze of condensed combustion water. This damaged drywall
around the windows, cracked a large picture window (several hundred $ repair), and required me to strip and refinish water-damaged sills.
Even worse, the moisture condensed on the underside of the (poorly designed) sheet metal roof, whence it melted in spring to anoint the upstairs ceilings and floors with dripping drywall coatings and stains. This led to the belated recognition of the need for roof rebuilding (couple kilobucks) to help prevent future condensation, and the epiphany that non-vented gas heaters are bad for the house's health even if acceptable for the occupants'.
While pleased with myself for tracing the problem to the heater (I calculated how much water would be produced by the amount of propane
consumed that winter while laying awake worrying about the demise of the house), I sure wish someone had educated me about the hazards
beforehand.
Frank Symington
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#5: Odor, dizziness
Date: Saturday, Feb 24, 2001
The only thing we do not like is that we feel very sick when using [a popular vent free model] even after letting the initial use take place. We're sure
we let the initial odors and factory smells burn off, but it still has a dizzying effect on us. The dealer didn't help us much after we told them. I think
we'll try and contact someone at the company to see if we can trade it in for a vented unit.
Posted at www.hearth.com
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#6: Wish they had bought a vented stove
Date: Monday, Feb 25, 2001
[A popular vent free model] needs to be in a house with lots of air holes. If fumes bother you. I sort of wish I had paid a little more and got a vented
stove. My house is a little too tight or small for a vent free one.
Posted at www.hearth.com
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#7: Hearth product retailer has removed over 200 vent-frees
Date: Wednesday, April 11, 2001
I can't believe ventless products are still on the market. My company has removed over 200 vent free products now and replaced them with direct
vents.The problem with this vent free issue is it's going to hurt the whole industry.When people come into our showrooms with problems, they don't
say "my vent free product caused the problem" they say "my gas logs or my gas fireplace caused the problem". This is an area that we'd better
start looking at as a industry.
Perry Bumpers
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#8: Hearth product manufacturer refuses to offer "lung vented" products
Date: Thursday, April 12, 2001
I ran across your site yesterday when searching under "vent free". What a refreshing breath of fresh air to find a dealer who "gets it" when it
comes to lung vented products! As you know, we (Heat-N-Glo, Heatilator and Aladdin) will not manufacture room vented products for the very
reasons detailed on your website.
Tim Rethlake
Vice President, Business Development
Hearth Technologies
rethlaket@hearthtech.com
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#9: Soot damage
Date: Tuesday, April 24, 2001
Just thought you would like to know that I am currently the unhappy owner of a vent free fireplace that has sooted up my entire house. I just completed building the house this past spring, and heated it with the ventless almost exclusively this past winter after receiving a $600 electric bill after heating with my furnace for one month. Initially, the ventless fireplace seemed like a godsend.
After a couple of months, however, we noticed that the ceiling edges were beginning to collect soot. Shortly thereafter, all of the ceiling joists, wall
studs, and drywall nails began showing up due to soot highlighting. We are now working with our insurance company to determine whether the cause
is moisture in the gas or some failure in the ventless fireplace system. Regardless of the cause, all the walls and ceilings in our new home now looks
black and dingy. Insurance will pay to have them washed and repainted, but in the meantime, the place is a mess.
Walt Guntharp
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#10: Can't live with vent-free
Date: Thursday, August 2, 2001
I currently own a vent free fireplace in Orlando and am in negotiations with my home builder over it. We can't live in the house when it is on! He is
offering to return some of the money paid for it and remove it and leave a useless space for the fireplace, or vent it. I think I want it vented, with
glass on the front and proof that there are no leaks. He cites two studies done by the manufacturer that say the fireplace doesn't have harmful
gases and was built to code. But there is a terrible odor that causes your eyes to burn, throat to itch, and eventually you get a headache.
John Edvardsen
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#11: Headaches, dizziness, noxious odor
Date: Saturday, October 6, 2001
I read your Q&A about vent-free stoves. I have a [popular vent free model], and for 2 years I've been trying to make it so it doesn't smell and give me headaches and dizziness. I don't leave it on for more than half an hour because I can't stand it, so leaving it on too much is not the problem. It is in a large room with lots of windows and an open hallway; the noxious odor goes upstairs, so I know the problem isn't ventilation or the wrong size space.
I've done the burn-off routine, and the shop that sold it to me gave me replacement logs, but the problem persists. After reading your site, I know
I'm not crazy. The dealer will not take it back, and I'm done trying to make it work. Can you give me any info to get into direct contact with [the
manufacturer]? There is no email address at their website. You have my permission to forward this to [the manufacturer] or post it on your Q&A
page.
Marbet Wolfson
Exeter, NH
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#12: Wife has headaches
Date: Thursday, November 29, 2001
Hello - We recently purchased a vent free gas fireplace for our home. My wife started getting terrible headaches when it was on. We stopped using
it and turned the gas off to it and her headaches went away. Is there any way to properly vent a ventless fireplace or do I need to purchase a new
one?
Thanks,
Clyde Myers
Hi Clyde,
Unless your vent-free was designed with the option of installing an exhaust vent (some are), there is nothing you can do with a vent-free except
replace it with a vented model.
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#13: Vent-free manufacturer gets 100 complaints per day
Date: Saturday, December 15, 2001
I'm so glad I came across your web site. I purchased a propane vent free gas log set during 2000. I have been unable to use it because of the smell. I've made various attempts to correct the problem: I let it burn off, I followed the manufactures recommendation and burned it on high for eight hours, I opened the windows, I've done everything to get rid of the exhaust / C0 smell. Nothing works. I've had the propane company check the recommended flow rate / pressure rate, in fact I had two companies do it. No one has offered to replace the log set, the seller told me to contact the manufacture, the manufacture hung up on me when they couldn't answer my questions. The vent free set burns our eyes, makes us dizzy and affects our throats and noses. No one will tell you this, everyone I talk to tells me my set is unusual, normally they can't smell a thing.
When I called the manufacturer, I heard another operator telling the caller he gets a hundred complaints a day. I couldn't tell what the complaint were, but I'll bet it's the smell. I was told by the manufacturer, get rid of the candles, don't buy new carpet, don't use spray cleaner, don't paint, on and on.......Believe me, I will not operate my vent free system. I will, when I can afford it, purchase a vented unit.....And I didn't tell you about the moisture, film on the windows and the complaints from visitors.
So I'm stuck with a lemon, but others beware, I have nothing to gain by telling you the truth about vent free gas logs. Be smart, you just can't breath the fumes.......Thanks for allowing me to address this issue. I wish I had found your site before my purchase. And to think I was going to invest in another vent free system thinking my first set was not operating properly.
Thank God for the internet and The Chimney Sweep.
Gary Gingrich
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#14: Suffering from black lung
Date: Thursday, February 14, 2002
We too had soot damage in our home from vent free gas logs, to the tune of $41,000. In addition I started experiencing shortness of breath. After 3 months of tests I had a lung biopsy which showed that I have "black lung". Both lungs have soot inside and outside. This is something that will not go away. I'm going to the University of Michigan Medical Center today with the hope of finding out what will happen from this point on. I was told that my lungs are worse than those of a coal miner exposed to coal dust for over 20 years. In addition to the lung problems, I have a heart condition developing because of the lack of oxygen going to the heart. I have read many of your comments and encourage everyone to be checked. It's quite apparent that some of the manufacturers appear to hiding something. The logs we purchased have been discontinued and the manufacturer refuses to say why.
If anyone has similar conditions please contact me at greg.filer@triplecrownsvc.com.
Greg C. Filer
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#15: "Shoe Polish" on walls
Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2002
I found your site fascinating.. wish I had seen it before I purchased my gas logs... now... to my question.. my husband and I recently retired to the
country. We purchased a lovely double wide home for this purpose. We had ventless gas logs installed into our fireplace and sat back waiting for
cold winter days and nights. It has been two winters now and holy smokes I've noticed the walls of our new home are reddish brown and yellowed as
if this home were 50 years old and neglected. The entire house will have to be repapered and painted as soon as the spring thaw occures. I cleaned
a picture that hangs over the mantel and the rag was totally brown as if shoe polish had been wiped up with it. This must be very unhealthy to our
breathing equipment. Now, is there any way I can hold the manufacturer responsible for the damage to my home?
Thank you.
Pat
Hi Pat,
We're not lawyers, but here's a link to an online organization that will provide a list of vent-free legal specialists in your state:
http://www.anattorneyforyou.com/legal/vf_index.htm
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Hi Mary,===========================================================================
#17: Mom belatedly diagnosed with CO poisoning
Date: Monday, July 29, 2002
I was so relieved to find your site so I could send my mother letters that would validate her as to her health problems of the last two years. She has a ventless system in her new home and her health problems began the first winter of use - it was run 6-8 hours a day. She had sinus problems, headaches, lethargy, dizziness, disorientation, hallucinations and eventually breathing problems. In eight months of use she went from 140 pounds to 99 pounds and when tested at 99 pounds she had a lung breathing capacity of 21%. She was sleeping on the couch most of the day. My sister and I felt like she was dying before our eyes. The doctors were stumped and ran test after test including 2 aids tests and a lung cancer screen.
After the fireplace was turned off for the spring/summer season of 2001 she began to feel much better. She still has residual symptoms - shaking, dizziness, breathing problems and confusion. Her lungs have been permanently damaged and her lifespan has been shortened by several years.
The fireplace manufacturer denies responsibility but is going to run the fireplace and do a CO test. It is very hard to prove that the fireplace is
responsible for her condition. We are searching specifically for evidence that these systems could have been the cause of her problems. If anyone
has any information about ventless symptoms that could help us PLEASE email me at SMOSELY@nc.rr.com.
Stephanie Mosely
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#18: Appreciates the info
Date: Friday, September 6, 2002
I applaud your site and information about vent free appliances.
Keep up the good work.
Chad Clack
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#19: Thanks for the website
Date: Wednesday, September 25, 2002
I too purchased one of those vent-free gas fireplaces, and experienced the headaches, plants dying, and moisture problems. I also found the house
had a mold problem. Your information about the CO issues explain a lot.
Thanks again for the VERY informative website.
Chris Hammerbeck
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#20: Gas Company warns against buying vent free
Date: Monday, November 4, 2002
I was very close to buying a vent free fireplace for my home. I just happened to call my gas company to see what the cost would be to install gas
lines for this. The man I spoke to mentioned that I may want to think twice about getting a vent free model due to the odor. He said he had a
customer who had one installed before talking to him and they are extremely upset about the odor. He told me he just wanted me to be aware of this
before spending a lot of money on one. Well, I am thanking him a thousand times over. After he told me this, I decided to do a search on the
Internet about odors emitted from vent free fireplaces, which is how I found this web site. After reading these letters, I am so glad that I didn't
waste my money! Thank you so much for this information. If I ever buy a gas fireplace, it will be a vented unit only.
Dianne in Ohio
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#21: Getting rid of vent free logs
Date: Saturday, December 21, 2002
We are replacing a [vent free] log set. Thought I was alone in my complaints until I read your site. Both the manufacturer and my installer acted
like I was the only one who had these odor and health complaints. Even with a CO2 meter which read 0, we still felt sick. On top of that, we had
mechanical problems, and even though the working parts of the unit were replaced, still had the same problems.
Thank you for refusing to sell vent free products.
Karen Rossi
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#22: Will conversion from LP to natural gas stop "room poisoning"?
Date: Sunday, January 5, 2003
We have a ventless propane fireplace. We've learned it's poisoning the room with black smoke and causing all sorts of problems. Can we convert
this ventless to burn natural gas? What are the health problems associated with natural gas, and the difficulty converting propane to natural gas?
We might also want to use the same system upstairs if possible.
Please advise.
Thanks, Kevin
Hi Kevin,
Converting your vent free fireplace from propane to natural gas won't affect the combustion emissions that are poisoning your room; the emissions
from both fuels contain the same poisons. If you want to eliminate the room poisoning, your only option is to replace your vent-free with a vented
model.
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#23: Second try for vent free, having same problems, looking for support group
Date: Wednesday, January 29, 2003
We bought our first [vent free] in 2001, and it sooted up our house. The serviceman the dealer sent out to inspect it said the [vent free] was faulty. We believed the dealer when he said no safety problems had been reported, and that this was just an isolated incident, so we purchased a replacement. The second [vent free] has a redesigned burner (the company is saying this was done for cosmetic reasons only), and although it is not emitting soot that we can readily see, our home still has damage from soot. After we paid for painting & cleaning at the end of the first season and had the heater cleaned it emitted soot again the following season. My daughter has recently seen her doctor because of severe headaches. We had no idea that the [vent free] could be causing this. I am terrified now.
I have questioned the manufacturer repeatedly about safety, and about the fact that we're living with the soot. The manufacturer and their lawyers are denying that the [vent free] is malfunctioning. Instead, they have said that it wasn't properly installed and that maintenance wasn't done, that the report the dealer sent in said that the [vent free] was clogged with dust and debris.
Is it possible to let the persons who have contacted your web page know that they should contact the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission in
their area regarding problems they have with their vent free heaters? I have also contacted the Attorney General's Office and will not stop until
something is done to stop the danger sold to us. If there is an organized support group please E-mail me at jbarnes317@msn.com
Joann
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#24: Removing vent free fireplace because of toxic by-products
Date: Saturday, February 8, 2003
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#25: "Horror Stories" help make decision for vented fireplace
Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2003
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#26: Saving lives
Date: Saturday, November 8, 2003
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#27: The tobacco companies say these new cigarettes are less poisonous, so let's light up!
Date: Saturday, November 15, 2003
Hi Rache,===========================================================================
#28: Legislation needed
Date: Monday, December 29, 2003
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Hi Kevin,===========================================================================
Hi John,===========================================================================
#31: Many, many thanks for the information
Date: Thursday, February 19, 2004
Thank you for all the info on vent free products. I was planning on buying a 30,000 btu vent free stove that was on an internet website as a close out. All the vented products seem to start out higher, so I got so excited when I found this stove.
I am now not going to buy it. Thank you for your information. I do not want to take a chance with my health. When I called the manufacturer, I
asked if there was any additional info that he could provide for me. He said that many customers open a window. I thought that to be strange
because then all the heat is going out. After reading your info, I now understand. Thank you thank you thank you. (I may have to save for another
year to get heat in my basement, but it will be worth it).
Thank you again,
Freezing But Healthy In California.
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#32: Can we vent our vent-free fireplace?
Date: Saturday, February 21, 2004
Wondering how we can vent our ventless fireplace. We are experiencing odor. It's a brand new home and we never realized that they installed a
ventless system. We are told that a chimney could not be put in because the pipe on the roof would not be 8 feet from an existing bedroom window.
(Which is building code.)
Any suggestions?
Diana Haake
Hi Diana,
Thanks for the inquiry! There might be a way to vent your vent-free: consult with your dealer or manufacturer and see if your fireplace is
cross-approved for partial or total outside venting. If so, you might be able to vent the exhaust to the outside, unless the only technique available
would also violate your thru-the-roof code. If your fireplace isn't cross-approved and the fireplace is located on an outside wall, you could replace it
with a direct vent fireplace: these vent out the backwall instead of through the roof, as shown in diagrams #1 and #2 on our direct vent info page.
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#33: Can we vent our vent-free fireplace?
Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2004
Hope you can help us. Have a beautiful Amish-made ventless fireplace. Can not use it. Everything yellow. This year we could smell gas, so we
haven't used it at all. Too afraid. Is there a way to convert it to be vented outside?
Thank you.
Herkywings
Hi Herkywings,
Thanks for the inquiry! As you can see in our answer to the letter immediately above, there might be a way: consult with your dealer or
manufacturer and see if your fireplace is cross-approved for partial or total outside venting: if so, you might be able to vent the exhaust to the
outside. Prepare to sacrifice heat, as once you vent a vent-free, it can no longer deliver the heat into the house with the exhaust gases, the way it
was designed to do. A better choice would be to replace your vent-free with a direct vent model, as these are designed to maximize heat transfer
into the room while at the same time venting their exhaust outside.
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Hi Ray & Eileen,===========================================================================
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Hi Marathon Man,===========================================================================
Hi Carole,===========================================================================
#38: Sooting, who do I contact?
Date: Thursday, September 30, 2004
I have been reading all of the emails on your web site concerning the black soot that the unvented stove gives off. I have had a problem with my
stove for 3 years and I always thought it was from something I did wrong while installing. I have changed the connections numerous times with no
change. Who can I contact to check my stove? Also, for safety reasons should I go to a different type of stove?
Thanks,
Tom moon
Damascus, MD
Hi Tom,
If you've read the letters above, it should be obvious that your healthiest and least-sooty solution will be to chuck your vent-free stove and replace it with a vented model. If you choose to keep your vent-free and want to try to tackle the sooting problem, your first step should be to contact the manufacturer and see if there's an authorized service technician in your area. Observe how he tunes up your stove carefully, as most manufacturers require that vent-frees be serviced at least once per month during the heating season, and you'll want to save the expense of bringing in a pro in the future.
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#39: Retired Hearth Products dealer refused to sell vent-frees
Date: Wednesday, October 13, 2004
Thanks for having the courage to address the serious issues of vent free products and refusing to make a quick buck on it. I was part owner of a chimney sweeping/stove sales business for 10 years and we also refused to sell anything ventless. It never made any sense to me that if anyone would actually research it and read the owners manual, why they would still decide on buying one. (stubborness, most likely. they always think they know more than the professionals) If it is dangerous for most types of people, it's dangerous for them too. But I know that you have heard from many a customer, like we did, who said something like "it hasn't killed me yet" regarding their dangerous situations. We quit our business partly for that reason. We had a good company and were consciencious about the work we did. We did not sell anything that we wouldn't use in our own homes, and we tested out many different stoves in our home. But, we would NOT sell anything ventless and always warned our customers about it if we heard them talking about possibly buying them.
Not many businesses will forego profit for the sake of protecting the people because many dealers & manufacturers do not have a conscience. It's
all about what sells and lines their pockets.
Xanndra Boehler
xanndra@hotmail.com
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#40: Can we make our vent-free gas logs safer?
Date: Wednesday, October 13, 2004
We purchased a propane vent free gas log set for our house last weekend. I just discovered your website today. I should have seen it BEFORE I bought the logs! We have a central heating system that is new and works well. We burn wood in our basement fireplace in the winter for supplemental heat because the basement gets cold. The upper main floor is where we have installed our vent free logs. We wanted them for ambiance and for occassional supplemental heat. Sometimes that room gets chilly when the fire is going in the basement because the furnace doesn't kick on as much. The basement gets very warm and the main floor cools down. I thought we could use the vent-free gas logs to balance out the heat a little. Now I am worried that we bought the wrong thing.
We installed the vent free system in an existing vented fireplace. Do you think the health concerns, soot concerns, etc are minimized if we open the
flue an inch? I tried it and we are still getting heat from the system with the flue open a crack. I don't want to use this vent free if we are going to be
sick from it, but if opening the damper would minimize the health risk, I would keep it.
Your opinion is appreciated!
Nicole Gallagher
Hi Nicole,
By all means, open your damper enough to vent as much of the poisonous exhaust as possible. Had you bought a vented set, it would have come
with a clip to hold the damper open about an inch, so yours sounds like a reasonable plan.
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#41: Vent-frees compared to cigarettes and asbestos
Date: Friday, November 12, 2004
I am a fireplace dealer in Ohio. Over and over people come in with the thought of placing a ventfree appliance in their home. Over and over I explain the problems associated with the vent free units. I lose many sales because other companies tell the client that vent free fireplaces are no more dangerous than a gas range (except that you don't have a big exhaust fan over it). I would rather lose the sale now than have suffering, unhappy customers forever. I want my customer to be as happy with their purchase 5 years from now as they are the day they bought it and, unfortunately, that will not happen if they purchase a vent free. If that makes me a bad businessperson, so be it.
We, as an industry, need to educate the consumer as to the best possible products for their needs. A direct vent or electric fireplace will give them
all they need and want without compromising their health or the health of the family. Please keep up the good work with educating the consumer. I
will recommend your website to anyone contemplating ventfree and will continue to fight the good fight here in Ohio. Just remember, there was a
time when people thought cigerette smoking and asbestos were good for you too!
Thank you,
Donerae Testa
The Place
North Royalton Ohio
440-237-6883
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#42: Gas Service Technician wouldn't even consider a vent-free fireplace
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2004
Hi, I have been a HVAC service tech for almost 30 years and when I was going to purchase my fireplace, vent free did not even enter my mind. I
knew of the potential hazards but I did not realize the extent until I stumbled upon your website. Why contractors actually sell this stuff amazes me.
Have our morals dipped this low, to knowingly endanger lives for a buck? They know the potential dangers when they sell [vent frees] but still
continue. They won't stop until they are forced to stop. You are carrying the torch in the battle against vent frees.
Keep up the good work!
Bob Kirr
Motown
Hi Bob,===========================================================================
#43: Decided to go with direct vent stove
Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2004
I was about ready to purchase a vent-free gas stove, but still felt a little uncomfortable with the concept. It was hard to buy off on the fact that the
system burns so efficiently that there is no substantial exhaust. After reading the horror stories on your web site, my wife and I have decided to go
with the direct vent stove. Thank goodness I was able to stumble onto your web site.
Thanks so much for making it available.
Michael R. Sylvain, P.E., R.L.S.
Phoenix, AZ
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#44: HVAC dealer warns cunsumers against vent-frees
Date: Monday, December 20, 2004
My husband and I own a heating and cooling business and occasionally we are asked about vent free fireplaces. I always tell everyone to avoid vent free because of the many problems associated with these vent free units including condensation on windows and noxious gases venting directly into the home. If homeowners have small children, health problems (asthma etc.), pets (vent free will kill birds fast), they will regret ever installing a vent free fireplace. From the letters I read on your website the health risks are not limited to people with health problems.
Also, I wonder if people read the instructions that are included with the vent free fireplaces. The one I read clearly states that windows must be cracked open and units have a maximum operating time.
If homeowners want to enjoy a fireplace, the only way to go is with a VENTED unit. Homeowners, do not try to save money by purchasing vent free fireplaces!
I will direct all further inquiries about vent free fireplaces to your website. Hopefully these vent free units will be recalled and outlawed in all 50
states in the near future.
Beth Koesterer
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Hi Ed,===========================================================================
#46: Soot, Soot, Soot
Date: Wednesday, January 5, 2005
We purchased a vent free gas log unit 3 + years ago, and now have soot, soot, soot everywhere. Ceilings, walls, inside cabinets, refrigerator, and on
everything plastic we own. Western Natural Gas installed the units and has been the only company to service them. We noticed the soot back in
March, they came and picked up the logs, "fixed" them saying they would take care of the soot damage, today we learn that their insurance
company denied our claim. Has anyone had luck going after the manufacturer "Vanguard"?
Kelly and Doug Stephens
Jacksonville, FL
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#47: Your website saved me today
Date: Monday, January 10, 2005
In my search for pros and cons for vented vs vent-free, I came across your site. Enticed by the promise of increased heat distribution, I was leaning
towards a vent-free gas log set. After reading the letters on this site, I can honestly say your website saved my life today.
Thanks and have a great day!
Melissa in Dallas
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#48: Any way to vent these fireplaces?
Date: Monday, January 10, 2005
Hi - I've been reading your site concerning the dangers of vent-free fireplaces and accounts by those who have suffered health issues due to their ventless fireplaces. I was hoping you might be able to offer some advice. My parents are just about finished building their home and I recently learned the fireplaces they have installed are all ventless. I was actually trying to find a smaller, bedroom model that my Mom was interested in for their bedroom and it was during this search that I ran across a lot of disturbing opinions on the use of vent-free fireplaces.
I've warned my parents about the dangers I've read about vent-free fireplaces, but I know they don't have the money to just replace their fireplaces with vented models. So, I was hoping you might offer some advice on whether it is possible to run venting to their existing fireplaces? One is located on an exterior wall, so I was thinking that a direct vent might be an option? The other fireplace is a 2-way that is not located on an exterior wall, but I thought that perhaps venting could be run from the fireplace down through the floor and then out to an exterior wall along the basement ceiling? Or maybe the 2-sided fireplace might vented up through the attic and roof. Do you have any thoughts on this? Can most/all models be converted, or is this not really a feasible option?
I appreciate any thoughts, advice, or additional resources that you might be able to offer to help. All of the research that I've seen discussing the
dangers of these fireplaces has me very concerned. Especially as my Mother has a slight asthmatic condition.
Thank you for your time.
Rianna
Hi Rianna,
As mentioned in response to previous letters above, some, but not all, vent-frees can be vented. To find out if your parents' fireplaces can be vented, contact the manufacturer. You won't be able to vent the see-through downward, so you'll need to investigate a vertical location for that pipe. Note: even the people who sell vent-frees caution against use by asthmatics, so if the fireplaces can't be vented, you need to convince your folks to replace them with vented models.
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#49: Vent-free owner saw doctors more than family & friends
Date: Friday, January 14, 2005
Hello:
I am so grateful to find your website. I had a vent-free fireplace installed in August, 2003, which never functioned properly. Over a period of 15 months, every part was replaced at least once. Eventually, a new burner was installed for the same model in 9/04. It too did not function (front row would light - not back row). Another model was installed in 11/05. This one would not light if the gas furnace was on!!
In the interim, I was constantly ill - eye, throat, blood pressure and heart problems - and was hospitalized four times. I had a pacemaker put in, felt fine in the hospital but once I came home, felt awful. I saw doctors more than I saw family or friends. I was practically an invalid. Eventually I called my local gas and electric company and who discovered I had a gas leak where the gas pipe joins the burner. It was leaking badly.
Here is my question: I want to sue these disgracefully incompetent people who assured me repeatedly that the installation was fine. But, I need expert medical advise as to the short and long-term effects of natural gas and carbon monoxide. My doctors tell me they have never had a patient who was exposed to natural gas, etc. Are you aware of anyone who has successfully won a lawsuit regarding a vent-free fireplace and what type of expert is needed. Toxicologist, industrial or environmental specialists? Or, can my doctors find out this type of information.
In the meantime, I am being treated by a pulmonary specialist for continued breathing problems.
Any help you can give me would be so appreciated. My advice to anyone is never, never get a vent-free fireplace. There is a reason why there are vents in the fireplace, I guess.
Thank you.
Sorry about your medical problems, and thankful that you chose to share. Nobody has written to us with the results of their lawsuits, but
there's a non-profit organization in England dedicated to fighting CO poisoning that may be able to help you with specialists, documentaion, etc.
They are called CO Support, and you can read about them online by clicking here. There is a contact link at the bottom of the page.
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Hi Doctor,===========================================================================
Hi Dennis,===========================================================================
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Hi Michael,===========================================================================
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Hi Barry,===========================================================================
#57: Thanks to all who have written to share their vent-free experiences
Date: Monday, November 21, 2005
Thank you so much for the online information site. I have a direct venting system that goes out to my back porch. I am having a sunroom built on this back porch and wanted the vent put inside running out through the roof so that no one would get burned by the hot metal. The construction company added this to our contract not knowing how much it would cost them to hire an outside contractor to do this work. Well, they had it assessed and asked me if I wanted to go ventless. I was totally naive about what ventless consisted of so I researched it and came upon your site. Thank you everyone for all your input. I immediately called the construction company and told them that I did not want a ventless fireplace and proceeded to tell them of your website of all the hazards involved in having one.
Your website has probably saved many lives from the potential dangers of ventless fireplaces.
Diane
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#58: Replacing vent-free due to smell, dizziness issues
Date: Wednesday, December 7, 2005
Q: Can a vent free fireplace be converted to a rear vented unit? My unit is inserted in a small bump out on the exterior wall of the house. All of my
neighbors love their fireplaces. They have rear vented units and don’t have the smell or dizziness issues we experience. Temco said no; we should
buy another model from them.
Any thoughts?
Tim
Hi Tim,
Only some vent-frees are cross listed for external venting. If your manufacturer says you need to replace the model you have in order to vent to the outside, thats what you need to do. By the way, if you're going to replace your vent-free, don't choose a cross-listed "ventable" vent-free to replace it unless you don't use the fireplace for heat: once you vent a vent-free, you lose virtually all the heat. A direct vent model, which is designed to maximize heat output into the room while venting the exhaust outside, would be a better choice.
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Hi David,===========================================================================
#59: No vent-free under this tree
Date: Saturday, December 17, 2005
I was all ready to buy vent free gas logs for my daughter's family for Christmas but wanted to check them out on the internet. After finding your site
and reading the letters from owners of these vent free gas logs I think it's best to find out how we can make her vented fireplace less drafty or just
close it up. She has a newer home in Delaware and other people in her development are just closing them up. I'm not sure about the codes in Del but
none of their vented gas fireplaces have dampers so when they are off the wind comes howling through. I don't want to put my grandchildren in
harm's way so until I find more positive independent findings on these vent free logs they are off Santa's list.
Thanks
Bill Robins
Hi Bill,
It might be a little late for Christmas, but here's a gift idea: find the name of the fireplace manufacturer (it is usually on a metal label just inside the fireplace opening at the top of the right sidewall), and contact them to see if they offer glass doors.
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#60: Dissatisfied with vent free
Date: Tuesday, December 20, 2005
As with all your other posters, we have a ventless system and hate it. We have been dissatisfied since we installed it in 1999 during a new construction. Do you know if there is any record of insurance companies paying for replacement due to the fumes, health and/or soot concerns?
We are looking to replace ours with a vented system. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated
Rhonda Trautman
Glasgow, Ky
Hi Rhonda,
Sorry, we don't know of any insurance company payouts due to vent-free health or property damage, or even where we might go to look that sort of thing up. Maybe we can help with choosing a vented replacement, though. You can read about our favorite gas direct vent fireplaces on our fireplace main page.
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#61: Not told about health cautions
Date: Wednesday, January 4, 2006
You are rendering a terrific service by providing the bulletin board on vent-free gas fireplaces. My wife and I are about to install propane heat in our home. Neither the potential contractor, nor all but a few of the potential dealers, provided any note of health caution regarding vent-free heaters or fireplaces. While one dealer advised us that the exhaust can cause condensation, deposits on window and possibly mold, the CO danger and possible long-term health effects were played down or not mentioned, maybe because the sales staff worried that generating such health concerns might discourage us from buying the vent-free units from them, or even from going with gas as a heating source. They were wrong, because we are going to move ahead and install propane heat, but with vented fireplace and heaters.
We plan to use the printout from your website to further educate our architect and installing contractor. Most important, this valuable information educated us in time.
Thank you,
Shimon Schwarzschild
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#62: Can't get windows clean
Date: Friday, January 13, 2006
Q: Our vent free fireplace leaves a film on the windows that is very hard to clean. Cleaned 3 times and film still there. Any suggestions on what will
remove this film?
Thank you,
Tanna Carrico
Hi Tanna,
Whenever you burn your vent-free fireplace, water vapor and nitrogen dioxide enter the room's airspace. The water condenses on the inside
surfaces of windows, where it mixes with the nitrogen dioxide to form nitric acid, which leeches ions from within the glass surface. Once this leeching
action has occurred, it is important to remove the acid leechate mixture from the glass, or permanent fogging can result.
To remove the nitric acid leechate mixture from your windows, use a good scrub brush and a mixture of ammonia and trisodium phosphate, then
rinse with clear water. This must be done on a regular basis whenever the vent-free is in use, to prevent etching. If the surface of the windows has
become fogged, try polishing it with gas stove glass cleaner, available at hearth product shops, home improvement centers and hardware stores.
Gas stove glass cleaner is a mild abrasive paste that looks and works like metal polish: you apply it to a rag, polish the glass surface until the
fogging is removed, then rinse with clear water.
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#63: Do vent-free "heaters" pose the same risks as log systems?
Date: Monday, January 23, 2006
We are remodeling the attic of a house into two bedrooms and are researching residential vent free heaters, not fireplace log systems. Do they pose
the same risks as are detailed on your website?
Thank you,
Dave Nelson
Hi Dave,
It doesn't matter if a vent-free gas burner is a stove, a set of gas logs, or a fireplace. If it is vent-free, it is venting its poisonous exhaust into your
breathing space. For this reason, vent-frees are a particularly bad choice for bedroom installations. The reasoning is, you might go to sleep one
night and not wake up.
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#64: Thanks for honest help on vent-free, I was sick for 3 years!
Date: Friday, February 17, 2006
Thanks for the info on vent free health issues! I used [a vent-free] for the last three years. I have been sick, all of the exact health issues as posted
by others on your Great site. After reading a couple of comments, I turned the [vent free] off !!!!! Bless You ALL!
Peace ,
Paul Aron
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#65: Wasn't told about any usage limits
Date: Thursday, February 23, 2006
Hi. Great website. I saw on one of your responses that ventless units should only be run 2-3 hours a day. I was not told this when mine was
purchased or installed. Does this apply to all units? (mine is LP). My current CO detector only reads at 30ppm+. If I get one that is more sensitive
and the levels stay below 10ppm, can I run it longer than 2-3 hours per day? This unit is the only heat source in one room.
Thanks for any info!
Victoria Vosburgh
Hi Victoria,
The final authority about usage limits for your vent-free will be the manufacturer. Try going to their website and downloading the owner's manual for your particular model. In the fine print, you'll most likely find wording like:
"This appliance is intended to be used only for supplemental heat.
DO NOT USE IT ROUTINELY AS A PRIMARY HEAT SOURCE"
(copied from a Temco vent-free fireplace manual).
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#66: Author of letter #65 again: Manufacturer speaks with forked tongue?
Date: Friday, February 24, 2006
I didn't have my manual so I called the company and they claim it can be run 24 hours a day. Its a Desa Comfort Glow blue flame heater (CBP30T). I have a CO detector but it only starts reading at 30ppm. I don't have any moisture problems but do get a heavy film on the windows. Should I assume their advice (that I can run it constantly) is incorrect? Better said, is even possible that it is that safe?
Hello again Victoria,
You can view the owner's manual for your Comfort Glow online by clicking here. First, note pages 4-6, where it shows the required airflow into the
room, and make sure your room ventilation complies (I'm betting it doesn't). Next, read the box at the top of page 7, where we find the predicted
phrase, almost verbatim:
This heater is not for use as a primary heater, only for supplemental heat.
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| #67: Four pictures worth 1,000 words Date: Monday, May 8, 2006 I was so pleased to find your site and have no idea why it didn't turn up when I searched before a couple of years ago. I'm in the process of trying to find out why my health made a rapid decline since I've been in the current house. The problems are headaches (which I have rarely ever had in the first 56 years of my life), bad lung problems, and memory loss problems. It's a rental house and the landlord thinks vent-free is the only way to go. My suggestion that there could be a health risk met with an angry glare and avid support for vent-free safety. We don't have the option to move at this time since there are no rentals available within our price range, but we hope to find something before the next heating season. I'm in the house 23 hours per day, most days during winter. The vent-free fireplace is the only heat source and runs continuously unless I turn it off. After turning it off, the living room quickly cools to 55º, a temperature that I can't tolerate at my age. On the days when the outside temperature is 20º or less, the fireplace doesn't even heat the living room. The house isn't air tight, nor does it have any insulation, so we do have a fresh air source. Even so, just step in my living room and smell the fumes ... actually, walk up on the front porch and smell the fumes. I have some sooting and a lot of gummy, shiny, brown residue almost everywhere, but worst on the wall behind the fireplace and on all the ceilings. There is also mold in various places, including all window sills. The windows are likely already ruined with fogging, which I didn't know about until reading your page today. I'm washing walls today, preparing to paint and found your site while taking a break from the work. Here are some pictures, I thought you might like to see ... taken with my little web cam, so they aren't the best. You can see where I've cleaned: it doesn't take a lot of thought to realize what the inside of my lungs must look like. Please note, the picture on the wall is brand new, just put up last week. The walls used to be just that white!!! Check out the first picture and notice how clean and white the lower wall looks, especially the baseboard ... and realize I have not yet cleaned the lower parts of the wall. Thanks for a great site and wonderful info. B. Nowak |
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#68: Soot-covered dreams: will the culprit step up to the plate?
Date: Wednesday, May 16, 2006
Your gas company's technician was most likely mistaken about the orifice foulup. Propane is delivered under considerably greater pressure
than natural gas, so propane burner orifices are quite a bit smaller than natural gas orifices. If you truly had a NG orifice in your propane fireplace,
you'd have had flames shooting up about a foot tall! ===========================================================================
Let me tell you one thing.....and one thing only.....YOU DON'T WANT TO SELL VENT FREE LOGS simply because they don't COST as much and you make more BANG on your buck installing and selling Vented Fireplaces!
What a joke about ALL THE MOISTURE....and opened windows! IF....IF.....and that's a big IF....about opened windows! I've owned a free standing vent free fireplace....the logs burn beautifully....helped MY HEATING BILL TREMENDOUSLY....and I've NEVER....NEVER....had a problem with moisture nor have I had a problem with dangerous gases! I have sensors in my house and NOT ONCE...not once have they gone off. YES...I plan on keeping the sensors in my house and I have three for safety (even if I didn't have a vent free fireplace)
But I suppose, you'll SCARE OFF more idiot type people so they have to go to installers/sellers of vented systems....WHICH IS BIG BUCKS! Face it, you know and I know....I can put in a free standing fireplace....but more than likely....when YOU SELL YOUR VENTED FIREPLACES....YOU INSTALL THEM TOO! What a joke!
By the way....don't say alot of states in United States don't allow for Vent Free ...... why don't you tell them the FACTS! There are only THREE STATES....California/Minnesota/and Wisconsin that don't allow these vent free logs! But, don't fail to mention...California probably don't need the heat....Minnesota/Wisconsin is lagging in legistration on passing bills....so they too will join the rest of the STATES in allowing for a product that companies are fully satisfied to put on the market because THEY TOO....wouldn't want lawsuits that would cost them big dallors!
Why don't you tell the people how many....people die from there cookstoves/conventional stoves.....compared to these vent free gas logs! You can't....because if it was/is so dangerous....the GOVERNMENT would be bigtime against them!
Your article makes me laugh....trying to scare people...so YOUR BUSINESS can survive!
Another thing for your thoughts! Ask a plumber if he likes installing plastic plumbing and he'll tell you COPPER is the way to go!! Why? More man hours.....costly materials.....and MORE MONEY FOR HIM!
Keep selling the dumb people that get scared off about Vent Free Logs.....they'll easily be sold your product along with dipping into there pockets for SEVERAL THOUSANDS OF DALLORS.....you can take from them! Bet with all the money you make...you can leave your windows open....while these sheep come knocking down your door to have you install vented systems that PUSH ALL THE HEAT OUTDOORS!
later,
Dominico
P.S. You didn't sell me on your Vented Logs.....I've been saving lots of money with my Vent Free Logs.......so, you won't get my money
Hi Dominico,
Calm down.
Open a window.
Take a couple deep breaths of fresh air.
Feel better?
We understand you're defensive about your vent-free gas logs, but man, you seem WAY too angry about it. And more than just a little misinformed. For the record, here are a few of the facts you've got wrong:
1) This is an internet website. Our customers are all over the world. We don't install the products we sell here, and, except for a few products that offer proprietary venting kits, we don't even offer venting for sale. In other words, we don't profit from the fact that the gas products sold here at The Chimney Sweep Online are vented.
2) We didn't build our business based upon our stand against vent-frees: our business has "survived" far longer than vent-frees have been available. Truth be told, we'd probably make a lot more money if we did sell vent-frees. We just don't think we'd sleep as well.
3) There are plenty of others with concerns about vent-frees who aren't trying to "get your money." If you read the letters on this page and follow the l
